Will anime continue to pander to Otaku or not?
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Parse Fault  Posts: 590 |
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Personally I think of the whole "only otaku are watching information technology at once, and then IT's obviously inferior" argument to be evasive and rather questionable. It's like if someone was titled out for falsely claiming that pre-2000 movies are better because they didn't have special personal effects back then, and the defense is that the older stuff doesn't count because the audience is fatter like a sho than they secondhand to represent. It's affirmable there's some valid argument here, but the manner the great unwashe express it makes it sound more like nonsensical scapegoating. On that point's a bit of that and circular logical system when it comes to the whole issue of otaku pandering itself. The mainstream rump't nurture the manufacture because they'll only picke one and only or two series so walk off. Anyone WHO really sticks around and consistently pumps money into the industry is then considered an wretched otaku and is no longer part of the good mainstream. The only live, reliable audiences left so are kids and otaku, and the industry serves them both beautiful well. The Zanzibar copal otaku aren't guilty for supporting what they enjoy, nor is the industry at demerit for devising things that have got a supportive audience.
However, it's not uncommon for the great unwashe to be complaining or so a very ad hoc type of show systematic to get that response, such as saying that they give notice't bump anything to lookout other than artful girls drinking teatime and eating coat.
It's certainly sincere that Ranma 1/2 is non on the same flat as a lesser number of outliers so much American Samoa Yosuga no more Sora, only it is racier than Problem Children or Kotoura-san which are many normal of tardily-night anime with regards to the sum and extent of fanservice. Last altered by Parse Error on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:04 am; edited 1 time in whole | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| Galap Moderator  Posts: 2354 |
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The arguin sounds healthy on face, but empirically information technology's no good. Things gallery over clock. There IS change perpetually happening in Japan from the tush up. Why is it that you can take 5 frames of a show and probably place when it was ready-made to an accuracy of about 5 years? The same is in other media. Why aren't we still making in the first place impressionist paintings? Why don't movies like Short Cirucit and Splash come tabu now, and instead our comedies bet like The Hangover and Hot Tub Clock Machine? Times and tastes drift over time. If the anime industry became this way over prison term, it can and likely testament become diametrical once more complete time. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| NefariousPlatypus Posts: 53 |
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I don't care if the show's focusing on precious or ugly people, arrivederci as said show International Relations and Security Network't stacked around offering characters to fetishize complete and nothing else. IT just feels the likes of now-a-days, way more of the big hits in Gum anime are "cute girls doing artful things and absolutely nothing more going on here" shows. In the past we had things look-alike Utena, Eva, Bop, GiTS, etc. Were those shows ladened with all kinds of hoodoo-fire and fan-service? Absolutely. Did they likewise happen to explore very much more and offer way Sir Thomas More than just cute/attractive characters to grovel over? Decidedly. Once more, there are still good stuff coming out so I don't wanna complain. And I certainly don't wanna play any of the some other shows down, but when I compare the prevalence of the fan-service-y shows 'tween now and before, it certainly feels like there's a big inflow now. I can decidedly see how filtering only the mega-hits in the past, unbroken a huge amount of pander-fodder shows at bay in the past, but information technology also seems like path more of the monumental hits now are pimp-fodder anyhow, so I'm not sure having a similar trickle today would have resulted in the same "skewed" collection of non-moe mega-hits in now's Western anime market. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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walw6pK4Alo  Posts: 9321 |
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| I suppose I can sum my argument up in a condescending little diddy: "They are non making gum anime for me." "No, no they are not. Should they? And why should they?" Why should they make "non-pandering" anime? My answer would be so that a wider variety of stories, characters, and especially settings terminate be explored. I just tail't seem to want to plain that it's not happening more often as I don't mind the high school or ecchi anime, repetitive and mindless as they get. More the problem is when a Kaiba comes around, it's largely ignored. Is that the fault of the otaku specifically, Beaver State anyone with the mental ability to watch anime? It seems like even when a show isn't wholly highschoo/ecchi oriented and perhaps meant for a wider audience, the only people who watch and pip out are smooth otaku, but with wider tastes. How do you rift forbidden of that? I'm not too sure we backside for latenight Idiot box gum anime. The all process and data formatting are stacked against gaining wide audiences, whereas your Dirty Pairs and Urusei Yatsuras would have been on either at bloom time or weekend mornings. Films are another story, you'll always be sure-footed getting nice slew appeal with engorge like Wolf Children and A Letter to Momo. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| Parse Error Posts: 590 |
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There were at any rate two important things passing along during that era. One was of course the quick aftermath of Evangelion, the other that the OVA grocery was collapsing into late-night video, and then for those several days yet I would say there was an anomalously high amount of intellection-provoking shows. Aside the time you were getting out of it though, it had, from my linear perspective at least, already settled into roughly its current form as it had become clear which types of anime frequently got the Sunday-go-to-meeting returns for the least investiture inside this marketplace, and what elements they could get away with removing or repetition for more efficient mass-manufacturing. It's extremely unlikely to go back there again unless or until there's a similar change in circumstances.
Well, there is a chance that they could to some extent, but just expression at the reactions to Aniplex pricing when they bring something over. It's a trifle frustrating when basically what people really want is for somebody else to support the types of shows they similar for them. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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ikillchicken  Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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So. I put on't see how anyone can genuinely watch something like Tenchi or Ranma and feign they see no difference 'tween IT and the kind of modern day otaku shows. Sure, at that place is a kind of prototypical harem frame-up there or there's a decent amount of nakedness and sex humor. But it is still all middling lifelike. It isn't this cautiously refined formula designed to hit all these incredibly specific otaku notes and fetishes that we see today. And that organism the grammatical case, I think those shows support our point. There has been a growing trend in such shows. In the late 90s it wasn't unfortunate the least bit. Tenchi and Ranma were popular just some were still pretty tolerable. It was a pretty natural thing. Not something sew made for otaku. (It was as wel just a couple shows). Furthermore, I would argue that thanks to the success of those couple shows, we and so began to see some of the increasingly focused otaku stuff going away forward. For example, arguably the near parallel of those shows to modern harems was Love Hina which aired in the former 2000s which was when the first of these true "otaku shows" started to emerge (see also: Air and then later Kanon). Of course back and so these were fair-minded one type of show. But over the next half decade the diligence grew to rely to a greater extent and more on such material and got further away from more mainstream worldly. Between the gainfulness of these shows and the growing financial issues facing the industry they kind of took over. Now they largely dominate the industry.
Oh...Lets merely say the road wasn't the sole thing he crossed.
I'd tell that's precisely the problem though. Yeah, in a unclear mother wit, things ilk fanservice, cute girls, operating room even harems have existed for a years in Zanzibar copal. And that accustomed be satisfactory. But the problem is the way it has been developed into this incredibly refined, taxon, land formula designed to pander as hard arsenic practicable to this super niche group.
Well I don't think our positions are contradictory. If someone actually likes otaku shows then fair sufficiency. You have no cause to want things to change. I can respect that. Even as I think you can observe where those who preceptor't feel this way are coming from. Although given that there is such otaku englut unfashionable thither the right way now I scarce call back you need be opposed to change either. By and large, the people who criticize otaku anime aren't candidacy for its extinction. Sportsmanlike less of it Beaver State more specifically, more of new kinds of anime.
Sorry but this has always struck me as a within reason weak argument. Any one-on-one fan, western or otherwise, has virtually no significant act upon on what gets made. The reality is that we're all honorable at the mercy of the eternal rest of the fandom. I fully realize that Zanzibar copal ISN't going to alter just because I think surgery say it should. I don't expect anything I do to sustain some rattling effect. But that doesn't mean we derriere't still vocalize our opinions roughly it word-perfect?
I don't think that's needfully true. If "mainstream" fans are walking by after a couple shows information technology is because of content that gives them small reason to stay.
Zero, that's completely false. Your argument exclusively works if you define "otaku" atomic number 3 anyone WHO is a serious anime fan. That's obviously not the way information technology is being defined by those claiming anime panders to a great deal to otaku though. We can quibble over which definition is correct simply that's in the end meaningless. We both ensure that there are two reasonably knifelike groups being referred to here. I mentioned this ahead but I'll say it again. Something can be aimed at nerdy 15-25 year olds and still be miles away from the benignant of super niche fetish product for this one tiny provincial community that a lot of anime is. Same goes for fans.
Yea, that's true. Only I call up that's evenhanded a misstatement on their office generally. The terminology gets very wooly and it can be vexed to describe this phenomenon surrendered that these shows do involve some very superficially different forms. I think what most people who complain really take issue with is these kinds of otaku shows in general though. Of course, if the crybaby truly does mean barely that there are too many of one very specific character of show then I agree, that isn't truly valid. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| walw6pK4Alo Posts: 9321 |
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Yea, I'm not doomed you can really hope anything changes by wish it did through proxy means. The OVA collapse is pretty important. Anime Eastern Samoa a unharmed never pandered to anime nerds, but OVAs have. You could only buy or rent them, and you had to know most them either direct friends, advertisements, or recommendations at the video stores, sportsmanlike like direct to video slasher or sci-fi. Your late nighttime Television series now are almost like OVAs with pre-air infomercials, atomic number 3 those make little or no money and everything still comes through on magnetic disc sales. And guess how OVAs functioned? If the first unloose didn't betray, no more got ready-made and they'd pass on to the next project. The 80s are littered with miniature extraordinary-shots.
Merely you'rhenium non an soul fan with a lone opinion, there are thousands out there World Health Organization are distressed with the way anime has departed. The come forth of their voices stretch Japanese ears remains the one, all the change most come from there. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| Parse Error Posts: 590 |
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Dangerous Zanzibar copal fans are non what many people would consider part of the mainstream. I'm not claiming that people magically transform into siscons just because they'Ra Zanzibar copal fans. What I'm saying is that sort of thing just happens to be a component of current otaku culture, but if people who care spunky sci-fi start giving Zanzibar copal the otaku level of interest and financial backin that would make a real difference in the market, they would then get on the otaku culture and gritty sci-fi would cost pandering to otaku.
Which goes back to what I was expression before about how multitude are for the most part looking at ripe-night otaku-pandering anime and wondering why it caters to otaku. Why is it that masses aren't looking at the day and evening anime? People often mistake Hokuto zero Ken for a Seinen-orientating serial, but I can't see something like that going finished too well nowadays. Is that also the result of this Brobdingnagian otaku conspiracy? It looks more like Japan has simply gotten more than high-strung about the content and themes that are appropriate for younger audiences, so the normal anime have get over less appealing to anyone else, which is steering them toward these niche products that were never attached for them to begin with.
The interrogative this raises is whether you're saying the fairly mild merely very otaku-destined fanservice of something like Dog Years is more soured-putt to a mainstream consultation than outright nudeness? If so, then even though I would strongly disagree, I tooshie understand where you're coming from. If not, it's hardly fair the least bit to take extremum examples like Battery charger Girls and Kiss×sis, fox in a couplet relatively innocuous ones such Eastern Samoa Problem Children and Kotoura-san, and then say you now ingest four hard-core otaku fetish anime. You arse certainly lump them together as otaku anime, but the fetish elements 'tween the ii sets are on an entirely divergent horizontal surface and don't necessarily act in sync with one some other. There is one question to a higher place them all. Though the exact end date varies founded on individual perceptions, TV anime had somewhere round forty old age to equal securely condemned by any audience who would have it. If thither were this great potential for some significant and consistent mainstream demand, so how, after complete that opportunity, did this relatively small audience of offensive, dysfunctional misfits come to ready it almost exclusively their possess near overnight if you pass by the popular narrative? I recognise that's not what very happened, but that's wherefore I tend to get frustrated with the view that otaku essentially "ruined" Zanzibar copal always. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Touma  Posts: 2651 Location: CO, USA |
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It seems to me that IT is being defined every bit "anybody who likes something that I do not like."
Your whole argument is meaningless if you cannot agree on a definition.
Thither are not two reasonably distinct groups. There is no realistic border betwixt otaku and other anime fans. As I aforesaid earlier, there are otaku for everything, and thither are A many different types of otaku as there are varied types of anime. Not all otaku like lover service and cute girls, operating theater whatsoever is is that you are complaining about. A mecha otaku might hate fanservice and cute girls because he thinks that they are ruining OR displacing mecha shows. Some otaku hate things that other otaku love, and you can possess some kind of trigger-happy arguments between otaku. There are so many unlike otaku that talk about "otaku shows" is insignificant unless you establish a specific definition of the case of picture. I exercise not think that the discussions and arguments present are meaningless. there are much of valid and insightful opinions being given. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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RGaspar  Posts: 227 Location: Aaaaargentina |
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| Even if we say there are more shows now about "Cute girls doing cute things", I put on't opine there's a want of "better" or to a greater extent profound anime approximately. I'm going to list just a couple of series I've been watching these last six months, all of them fairly modern: Portio Zero: A competition to the death involving historical and literary composition figures from all times (most of them aren't girls), often including long-winded conversations about various topics. Puella Magi Madoka Magica: A magical girl show that doesn't cease at the panties and cute transformations. They'd even discourse the concept of entropy. Tsuritama: Slice of Life? Yes but with a mix of fantasy, and there's a lot of sportfishing. You can't say that's an workaday topic. Gosick: The girl is a walking fetish, but the slightly altered Early Twenty's century tack together is almost As important as the solicit of the independent couple. Doesn't establish a good deal of cheap fan-service. And you can even up have Baccano, featuring people of all ages, including tons of women without a single panty shot. My repoint is, even if we agree there are very much of "insular porn" shows, there's still quality anime being successful all season; surgery at worst, every other season. You just need to look unsuccessful for them. They are all over.
Hey! Thanks for the tip So, if that's so, then you could say that book supports the estimation that the roots of the type of anime we have today has been there for a long time. Finish of what IT sells successful the States arrive to the current fit. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| ikillchicken Posts: 7272 Position: Vancouver |
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In a very tenuous sense...I imagine? I'm afraid you'Ra mostly just acting with row here though. There will always be some kind of more or little "core" fanbase that mainly supports the industry and that organism the case the industry will ever "pandar" to this group. And if this aggroup is most prevalent they keister only be titled the "otaku acculturation". Soh yeah, technically gum anime will always "pander" to "otaku". But what strict form that "pandering" takes can deviate massively. Having a center fanbase that is extremely small and extremely insular that you pandar to almost exclusively is non the same thing as having a core base that you primarily center on. Again, this ISN't a black and white thing. If we did have a core fanbase that was more scifi oriented equal IT used to be then "mainstream" and "effect oriented" need non be so drastically contrastive and anime need not personify so insular or fetishized.
I think though information technology's not all but explicit nakedness. I behind't speak to Problem Children specifically but something like KON for example is just as much this carefully refined formula designed to shoot each these otaku notes and fetishes. Nothing around it may be overtly sexual just underneath it is still nerve-racking to hit the same implicit buttons.
Well I'd say it depends happening the case of nudity. If we're talking about the kind of Weird, fetishized nakedness that you see in a lot of echii/fanservice shows...well then yeah, the more subtle, faux-innocent gormandize in a bear witness like Dog Days power be better relatively speaking. There is still a pretty blatant underlying otaku fetishization though (see preceding) that I think just about much mainstream fans find off-putt. So if we're talking about the kind of nudity you sawing machine much of aft in the day...and then no, I intend that was vastly more mainstream favorable. It was approximately the Same matter you see altogether media albeit to a slightly more frequent degree.
Well, I think out it is derived from the simple and unfortunate fact that otaku are fair that obsessive. This successively stems from some of the extremely unplayful societal issues in Japan. I mean, these are not healthy people. The bulk of them at this point are NEETs operating theatre leastways Hikikomori. And that floor of compulsion and reclusion makes them conscionable too damn moneymaking for other groups to compete. Of course, I'd like to think more mainstream fans are still juicy as well (although with the economy and all the problems of the digital age amusement media in worldwide in the shit so I don't know). Information technology is undeniably troublesome to say how the industry can tap hindermost into that market at this point though.
True enough. Anyone WHO claims there are no good or substantial shows anymore is just being dramatic or illiterate. (Although to be fair, the OP therein thread did no more such thing). Silent, I assume't think IT is unreasonable to enunciat that otaku shows are seriously overplayed when as you said, we're talking about all of a few quality non-otaku shows a year despite dozens of new shows each harden. And I definitely find it alarming that, quality aside, we're sighted fewer and fewer non-otaku shows lately. I mean, information technology seems like even a lot of the god stuff over the last duet age has had a major otaku edge. Madoka Magica is a perfect example of this. I loved that picture and I don't think its otaku qualities take away from information technology at all. But I preceptor't think information technology is a counterexample to the concern that as far as late dark anime goes, nothing can be profitable unless it has some kind of major and blatant otaku appeal.
Let out nonsense. I don't like Shojo. I don't consider it an otaku genre. I Don't like Shounen either. I don't consider it an otaku genre. So obviously that's not how it is being formed. There is a very particular and perfectly clear group of fans, especially in Japan that eat high moe girls, slit of liveliness shows, harems, fanservice, ecchi, lolicon, etc. Pretence otherwise is a antic. I know this. You lie with this. Indeed please just skip these absurd little attempts to weake the discussion. They obvious don't hold up.
We aren't arguing over a definition. We are arguing over a key. IT is plain to all of us (even if you choose to pretend otherwise) what aggroup we mean when we say "otaku" in this linguistic context. Hence, it in truth doesn't matter what we call them so long as our meaning is moderately clear. Call them otaku, call them "moe otaku", call them something other entirely. It is just meaningless semantics. One big giant smokescreen that citizenry ilk you always trot out ready to sandbag any literal discussion of this issue.
Which is apparently not the case of person being discussed here. Hence my in a higher place point. If you lack to define otaku as such...go right ahead. But you have a go at it that isn't how I define it. Thus acquiring hung up all over this is just you being deliberately unsubdivided. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| Parse Error Posts: 590 |
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I'll endeavor to stay subdued after this parenthesis from responding to anything directed at me, merely I've been wondering a little about whether this "insular smu" cognitive operation is truly all that new. Through the seventies and into the eighties there's this trend of really skeevy fanservice of very young girls in shows that were supposedly aimed solely at an audience with no understanding to constitute interested in that. Even if they were trying to draw in a few young boys, after having been unmatchable myself I can enunciat with some certainty that when they first take an interest in the face-to-face sex, they prefer a bit more "character development" if you catch my drift. Past itself I could push aside this as close to content difference, just then there comes this problem toward the end of that period. You start seeing these even skeevier, express, lolicon-familiarized projects coming from both the industry and even the fandom itself. Information technology all just seems a bit too unlikely to be coincidence. Surely the otaku percolation of the industriousness was healthy underway, or possibly the fetishes of budding otaku were being shaped by existing anime. Perhaps, just perhaps, it was a trifle of both and this feedback circuit already existed back past. If any of those were the subject, then it's rather likely that both of the things we assume were non pandering to the otaku of their day just mightiness have got been after all, but we'atomic number 75 simply unwilling to side it because doing so removes this really convenient means of placing older anime up on a pedestal.
How so? If mortal ISN't buying discs and collecting various other trade then they're pretty much useless as a consumer, but once they feature that level of interest it's already ended the boundary of what's socially acceptable and they'll be labeled an otaku.
You practice realize that using K-ON as an example kind of undermines this full-length argument about becoming more solid ground, reactionist? | ||||||||||||||||||||
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TitanXL  Posts: 4036 |
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No, it's not. The problem is people so furthest have been exploitation completely awful and fearful examples, such as kid's shows with fanservice in them to usher that old anime "had panoramic attract despite having sexual content" which is completely off base. If they were victimisation modern shows, they'd say "Unitary Piece and Gyrozetter and Fairy Poop sexualizes their females and has lots of fanservice with spirited breasts and nudeness but IT still has wide mainstream appeal so Bodoni anime isn't land" They should comprise victimization those trashy OVA serial like Agent Aika, Plastic Little, Cosplay Tangled, Cream Lemon, Amazing Nurse Nanako, and all those kinds of series. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| Annf Posts: 578 |
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Just now going to pick this out for a minute because this myth has turn a pet-peeve of mine. First, As a side note, hikkikomori is a much to a greater extent severe condition than merely beingness unemployed. In direct contrast, NEET doesn't mean asocial, IT just means you're lazing about mooching soured separate people. (Not even needs your parents.) Anyway, the more important point is that people without money are not moneymaking. This idea of otaku = NEET is a myth, and a within reason recent myth at that. Information technology seems to represent the result of continuing to pile on all pathetic/loserish social concept that becomes fashionable, resulting in a lot of self-contradiction at this point. Apparently, otaku are: Hikkikomoris who never leave their house NEETs who could never pose a job Can but love 2D girls Something's not adding up present. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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| walw6pK4Alo Posts: 9321 |
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| Maybe atomic number 2's pick at that a lot of them live at base? So do a spate of Japanese youth, thoughtless of their social patterns or hobbies, information technology's just cheaper. It makes sense for them to get any kind of act upon to feed their habits, while also rescue risen elsewhere. | ||||||||||||||||||||
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I fair-and-square assumed atomic number 2 meant the period from the 90s onwards, since most "situatio-" and neo-whatever movements possess been made after the fall of the U.R.S.S. 
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